Sometimes when I read news like this, I feel like I'm still living in medieval times...Woman in exorcism suit hid long psychiatric history: defence lawyer
(Strait Times 24 Oct 07)
MADAM Amutha Valli, 50, who is at the centre of the exorcism suit against Novena Church, did not tell the priests who came her help of her long medical history of mental disability, which her family members knew about, said a defence lawyer at the opening of the trial on Wednesday morning.
Senior Counsel Jimmy Yim, who is defending Father Jacob Ong, one of the 10 defendants being sued by Madam Valli, dismissed her allegations as an 'incredible story', and 'a well-hatched up scam'.
In his opening statement, Mr Yim dwelled at length on Madam Valli's psychiatric history, culled from reports by doctors at National University Hospital where she had been seeing since 1986.
'If the plaintiff's family, who were in the best position to assess the plaintiff's condition knowing her past medical and psychiatric history, had formed the view that medical assistance would have been more appropriate in the circumstances, they could and should have brought her to Tan Tock Seng Hospital, which is no more than several hundred metres away from the Church,' he told the court.
'The plaintiff has a long medical and psychiatric history of mental disability which the family members knew about but which was not mentioned to the defendants at anytime that night.'
From the available information it does appear that Madam Valli was in need of psychiatric treatment long before the incident happened. I don't know where this case will go.
However, if I see a person "slithering like a snake, shouting and screaming like Satan* and marching like a soldier", it's a good time to call a doctor.
NOT a good time to sprinkle holy water on her and restrain her for hours in a confined space.
Do you really need to know her psychiatric history in order to know what to do??!?
When somebody suddenly collapses in public, I would assess the person's condition, call for an ambulance and perform CPR if necessary.
No need to know about that person's medical history at all.
So how would you differentiate between a behaviour that is caused by evil spirits and one that is caused by psychiatric illness?
And if such outbursts can be potentially caused by evil spirits, why are evil spirits so afraid of antipsychotic drugs?
If exorcism works, please show us the data so that we can spare schizophrenia patients the suffering of side-effects such as extrapyramidal symptoms.
In the meantime, remind me not to make friends with people who would "help" me in this manner the next time I behave erratically**.
Which happens, oh... at least twice a week.
On a good week.
Would you like to know more?
How it feels like to be a schizophrenia patient:
- My 12 hours as a madman (by Sidney Katz)
*My question for Mr. Tito Isaac, defence lawyer representing Father Simon Tan:
How do you know what Satan sounds like?
**Erratic relative to social norms, which is looking less and less normal to me nowadays.
31 Comments:
'If the plaintiff's family... had formed the view that medical assistance would have been more appropriate in the circumstances, they could and should have brought her to Tan Tock Seng Hospital, which is no more than several hundred metres away from the Church,'
Wow. Does that mean that if I opened a quackery practice next to a hospital I can absolve myself from any malpractice suit, because it is presumed that all my clients have willingly and knowingly declared that whatever they are suffering from is not a medical condition?
(Sadly, it probably does...)
So how would you differentiate between a behaviour that is caused by evil spirits and one that is caused by psychiatric illness?
Well I'm probably being a little facetious, but I'd go on the basis that no behaviour is caused by evil spirits and therefore it must all be a psychiatric illness...
My husband is a "good Catholic boy", and says it's common belief that the man possessed by a demon called Legion ("Because we are so many") in the New Testament was suffering from what we now know to be schizophrenia. And if we had a time machine and could take a couple of psychiatrists and neurologists back to "Biblical" times to examine people supposedly possessed by evil spirits, we'd find all of them without exception suffering from a mental disorder of some sort.
But I'm preaching to the converted here aren't I? ;-P
I think the two psychiatrists who saw her are in trouble now because in my opinion they did not conduct diagnosis in the proper manner, and it was not fair to make a judgement on the plaintiff's symptoms without investigating historical records:
In a report last year, Dr Chan wrote that Madam Valli's symptoms 'are a direct result of the traumatic incident that she experienced at the church'.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church no.1673 has this to say:
"When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing. In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called "a major exorcism," can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness."
This is the word of God. Well actually Jesus but he is the son of God and he is also God - a part of the Holy Trinity. Please don't ask me to explain using logic and reason. It's called a Mystery and why you have to have FAITH to believe these things. The piroeutte and contorted twists of illogic sure as hell isn't going to pass muster.
And who can argue with that? :-)
So how does the priest performing the exorcism distinguish a psychotic episode from demonic possession? Inquiring minds want to know!
PZ
To Angry Doc:
You're right, it doesn't make any sense.
To Julia:
I agree - as another example, some of the people accused of being witches during the Salem Witch Trials were actually suffering from Huntington's Disease.
Oh, and you just reminded me to go check out your holiday photos!
To Anon 1:43:
When you say that the psychiatrists are in trouble, do you mean legally? I am not aware that they have been sued by the defendants in this case.
Moreover the defence lawyers say that Mdm Valli had "concealed and suppressed" her medical history from her doctors.
Based on the information presented so far, it does appear that the symptoms she currently have predate the incident.
Also, in the Straits Times today, the defence presented information suggesting that Mdm Valli is a fraud.
We'll need to wait till next week to know more.
To PZ:
According to wikipedia, indicators of demonic possession include:
speaking foreign or ancient languages of which the possessed has no prior knowledge; supernatural abilities and strength; knowledge of hidden or remote things which the possessed has no way of knowing, an aversion to anything holy, profuse blasphemy, or sacrilege.
I supposed if a person starts to speak fluent Zulu (with accurate click consonants), or knows where the pitot tube of my F-16 model aeroplane went, or develops an aversion to swiss white chocolate, or starts moving stuff around the room with her/his mind - I would bring the person to see a priest rather than a doctor.
I would also contact Mr. Wang since he seems to be into this sort of TAR stuff.
it seems like people with psyc history are automatically 'discounted' in their credibility, which is not fair to them
"'If the plaintiff's family, who were in the best position to assess the plaintiff's condition knowing her past medical and psychiatric history, had formed the view that medical assistance would have been more appropriate in the circumstances, they could and should have brought her to Tan Tock Seng Hospital, which is no more than several hundred metres away from the Church,' he told the court."
Suppose the plaintiff had no previous history of psychiatric problems, would that have justified the exorcism?
It's quite obvious that the priests did the right thing by performing the exorcism, isn't it?
I mean, the woman is no longer demon-possessed, which is proof that they had successfully exorcised the demon.
OR
The woman's symptoms are due to the continued possession by a demon, and the priests needs to continue with the rites in order to cure her completely.
The fact that she is still demon-possessed can be seen by the fact that she is suing the church! That's exactly the kind of thing a demon would make her do, isn't it? What more proof do we need?
To Anon 2:20:
True, but if Mdm Valli was already sick before the incident, that weakens her case that the exorcism was main cause of her current symptoms.
To IMBS:
That's a superb question. Though not qualified to rule out biological causes of her behaviour, the priests went ahead with the exorcism procedure on Mdm Valli.
What criteria did they use to make this decision, and if they departed from the criteria (as far as we know no ancient/foreign languages were spoken, no missing car keys were recovered and no furniture was seen flying around the room) are they responsible for the ill-effects of the procedure?
To Angry Doc:
Great insight, which highlights this question - how do we evaluate the outcome of an exorcism?
However, whether Mdm Valli is still "possessed" or not I doubt the priests will want to continue the rites on her, or anyone else.
Hello, would like to mention that this was not a exorcism and it was a hatch up scam. If you read the straits times carefully, this woman and her family are not credible at all. In the first place the lady is not a roman catholic, then what is she doing there? Was all these was plan already. Besides, she is suffering from alcoholism and drank blood from adrian lim(murderer hanged in 1984)and so many more. She is a cheat! This is not even a case of exorcism so do not talk what you do not know. There is difference in deliverance and exorcism. The woman has plenty of debts too-45k from Tan Tock Seng Hospital and lots of other. Now she is demanding 250k, we know who's the liar. Con woman!
Anonymous said...
it seems like people with psyc history are automatically 'discounted' in their credibility, which is not fair to them
Hello, the world is like that. Indeed they are not credible because she may use that and plan a tremendous story against the church thinking they will lose. guess she is trying her luck, the church will not give in to her nonsense. The straits times and media has also mentioned they hired a private investigator to investigate on mdm amutha for 4 over months and show she was fine in contrast to what she say. So, therefore, her words cannot be trusted, she is out to lie. Her daughter too, has many frauds, go see the newspaper, it tells them all. Never give in to the cheats! This is so obvious!
To Ancient Healing Arts:
You say,
This is not even a case of exorcism so do not talk what you do not know. There is difference in deliverance and exorcism.
Can you help explain the difference?
Hello, the world is like that. Indeed they are not credible because she may use that and plan a tremendous story against the church thinking they will lose.
Are you saying that all people who have a history of psychiatric illness are not credible because Mdm Valli is plotting against the church?
Anyway, it won't help her case if she doesn't appear credible.
So, therefore, her words cannot be trusted, she is out to lie. Her daughter too, has many frauds, go see the newspaper, it tells them all. Never give in to the cheats! This is so obvious!
Based on the information presented by the defence, you are likely correct. But that's not what we're discussing here.
Now you've made me really curious about the difference between deliverance and exorcism.
Hmm, well you could read here
The Church as a money shaking tree...
Shame on people who come in the Catholic to deceive in the Lord's house, asking for money in a way that's so disgusting.
I refered to the news in Singapore where an NON- Catholic as her name suggested (Amutha Valli Krishnan) goes to Novena church and pray, where she CLAIMED that the priests with 7 lay man strangled, pinned down and verbally abused her. She is now filling damages and sueing the catholic church.
Movies like Emily Roses, or Exorcisms series certainly let many non-believers think that Exorcism is a process of forcing out the Devil physically. What's disturbing is normally what we see is not what is real. Exorcisms requires alot of preparations and discerments, and it's to be performed by priests with the gifts of exorcism and approved by the Bishop. There is no such thing as last min Exorcism without proper prayers, fasting and reconcillation with God. Such claims is definitely made by a NON-Catholic with the INTENTION to win easy 'TOTO' money from the church.
Of cause the Church will win in this case as the result from one medical report by Changi General Hospital psychiatrist is not valid. The Psychiatrist may be an 'enemy' of the church and attack upon a rise in oppourtunity. She mentioned that Amutha Valli's symptoms are a direct result of the traumatic incident she experienced at the church.
Question 1. How she knows that Amutha Valli doesn't have previous incident? Did she ever visit her before the incident?
Question 2. Why Amutha Valli goes to a Catholic church seeking for help when she has no problems faced in her life?
Question 3. The doctor added she would require long-term treatment and follow-up, and is unlikely to fully recover from her symptoms and it affected her ability to cope with self-care, demands at home and relationships with family. Does she means that she can now filled a Total Disability Claims?
Such Comments from a professional is so irresponsible and insulting to her role in society as a DR.
The family is making use of the Church to achieve their evil purposes! If the person is INSANE, acknowledge that she is INSANE! Don't blame it over prayers from the priest that do it in good intention. If your Indian temple can't provide you the money, please don't rob it from the Catholic Church! We welcome you as a non-believer and pray for your well-being, but you turn around and Sue us instead!
Yes, it's US! If you sue our Priest, you are Suing the WHOLE CATHOLIC COMMUNITY, and we Catholics are united in Spirit and truth. Go ahead and challenge the authority of God. I sincerely pray that you will live a good conscience even though it's hard to judge conscience from an insane person. Period. Taken from:
http://thadzc.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html
I think its true what many non believers think its exorcism as a result of the exorcism of emily rose movie which was exaggerated in content. Well we will see...the good will triumph over the evil and the evil will not get its way.
Well there are many sites on the net of roman catholic explaining what is exorcism and what is deliverance which many people often get confuse between the 2.
Here is something which I find it useful:
The Church and Exorcism
Highly Recommended Books:
"An Exorcist Tells His Story" and "The Exorcist - More Stories"
both books are by Father Gabriele Amorth found on Amazon.com
What is possession?
What are the signs of possession?
How does one become possessed
Who can perform an exorcism?
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WHAT IS POSSESSION?
Possession is when Satan enters and takes over the physical and mental capabilities of a victim, however, the soul and will remains free. Satan acts through the victim without the victim's consent, thus the victim is morally blameless. Satan does not act alone when he possesses an individual. He works side by side with many evil spirits such as spirits of lust, hate, destruction, suicide, revenge, anger, anxiety, desperation, death, torment, etc. Such an example is found in Luke 8:30 the case of the possessed man in the territory of the Gerasenes: "Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "Legion," because many demons had entered him ".
Satan's army of evil, torment many unknowing lost souls to the point of destruction of others and of themselves. Today a more favorable climate exists for cases of possession and obsession then ever before. Our world has become a playground of pornography, sex, money, material possessions, drugs, and alcohol. There are so many instruments to spread these Satanic messages such as television, Internet, radio, music, and even the clothing we wear; thus our children are exposed to a multitude of temptations and are wide open to evil. The "predominant" Gods of of this age we live in include money, television, music, and sex. Unfortunately, the "cure"-exorcism, is considered an "ancient" ritual and is snubbed by most religious leaving many victims to suffer indescribable torments, and in some instances, even suicide.
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SIGNS OF POSSESSION (from the Roman Ritual of Exorcism)
The following are symptoms of possession as represented in the Roman Ritual of Exorcism. In most cases, a victim will have one or more of the traits listed.
Victim speaks or understands unknown languages without ever studying the language being spoken or heard
Victim clearly knows things that are distant or hidden
Victim can predict future events (sometimes through dreams)
Victim has an intense hatred for holy things
Victim shows a physical strength far above his age or normal condition
The Extraordinary Activities of Satan Defined - The following is taken from Fr. Gabriele Amorth's second book "An Exorcist More Stories." Fr. Amorth's book is published by IGNATIUS released in 2002. The boundaries between one category and another are not clear-cut, because there is a lot of mingling and compounding of symptoms.
External Pain - deals strictly with physical suffering. This includes the beatings, scourging, and injuries caused by inexplicable pushing, falling objects, and so on, that we read about in the lives of many saints, such as the Curé of Ars. Saint Paul of the Cross, and Padre Pio. These occurrences are not as rare as we may think, and the demon's activity is usually confined to external activity; internal activity, if any, is only temporary and limited to the duration of a particular disturbance.
Diabolic Possession - is the gravest form of demonic activity, which allows a continuing presence of a demon in a human body. The evil symptoms do not have to be continuous but can alternate between periods of crisis and periods of rest. Possession implies intervals of temporary suspension of mental, intellectual, affective, and volitive faculties. Symptoms can include the knowledge of languages unknown to the victim, superhuman strength, and the ability to know the occult or someone else's thoughts. Typically, there is an aversion to anything sacred, often in conjunction with blasphemy. There are also frauds who pose as demoniac; therefore, we need to be extremely wary.
Diabolic Oppression - is a ransom discomfort. We must remember that symptoms and gravity differ greatly case by case. This oppression can strike health, job, affections, relationship with others, and so on. Its symptoms include unexplainable rages and a tendency to complete isolation. Oppression can affect both individual and groups (even very large groups).
Diabolic Obsession- causes an almost split personality. Our will remains free, but it is oppressed by obsessive thoughts. The victim experiences thoughts that may be rationally absurd but of such a nature that he is unable to free himself. The obsessed person lives in a perpetual state of prostration, with persistent temptations to suicide. We must be aware that the temptation to commit suicide is also present in diabolic possession and diabolic oppression.
Diabolic Infestation - In this case, the malefic activity is directed toward places (houses, offices, stores, fields), objects (cars, pillows, mattresses, dolls) and animals, therefore it only indirectly affects man. Origen tells us that the early Christians resorted to exorcisms in these situations.
Diabolic Subjugation - The term indicates a voluntary pact--implicit or explicit---with Satan, by which we submit to the lordship of the demon. There are also involuntary times with the evil one; these cases fall into the preceding categories, especially the most severe: possession.
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HOW DOES ONE BECOME POSSESSED?
Below, Fr. Amorth explains that there are four principal causes that may cause one to fall victim to these evils.
Pure Divine Permission
Clearly, nothing happens without divine permission, but God never wills evil, suffering, or temptation. He gave us freedom and allows the existence of evil, but knows how to turn it into good. When he gives the demon his permission to torment us, he does so to strengthen us in virtue, as in the biblical example of Job, as well as of many blesseds and saints. We must keep in mind that diabolical harassment in itself has nothing to do with the state of grace of its victims.
Subject to a Curse
Here, too, the victim is innocent, but there is culpability on the part of whoever casts and/or commissions the curse. By the word curse, I mean the intention of harming others through demonic intervention. This can be achieved in many ways: malefice (or spell), binding, evil eye, malediction, and so on. The matter is serious, but we need to be on guard against misconceptions. By their nature, curses lend themselves to all sorts of abuses, especially when we consider the current escalation in the number of frauds, suggestions, manias, and more.
Grave Hardening of Sin
Judas Iscariot is the classical Gospel example. The many individuals who abandon themselves to sexual perversions, violence, and drugs fall into this group. The heinous crime of abortion aggravates this situation; its terrible repercussions are clearly seen during exorcisms, because to liberate a victim who is guilty of abortion usually requires a very long period of time. Due to the current devastation of the family and the laxity of morals, the repercussions that stem from the scourge of abortion are much more common than in the past. When we take all these factors into account, we can understand why the number of individuals stricken by evil ailments has multiplied.
Proximity to Evil Places or Persons
This includes attending spiritualistic session, dabbling in magic, or consulting magicians, witch doctors, and some card readers; also, practicing the occult, belonging to satanic sects, or practicing in rites that climax with black masses, and so on, put us at great risk.
To this category we can add the influence of mass media, such as pornographic shows and violent horror movies broadcast by many TV stations. We witness the effects of the widespread presence of rock music, culminating in satanic rock performed in what we could easily refer to as "churches or rock", such as stadiums, parks, and discothèques. We should not be surprised that, today, there is an explosion of these activities: a decline in faith life is directly connected to an increase in superstitions. I will not tire or repeating that members of the clergy have done nothing to oppose, or at least warn against, all these evils, because they are completely ignorant even of what the Bible explicitly says on the subject. This forth category has greatly contributed to the increase in evil ailments in the last decades, especially among the young. Taken from (An Exorcist More Stories by Fr. Gabriele Amorth, published by IGNATIUS PRESS can be purchased at Amazon.com).
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WHO CAN PERFORM AN EXORCISM?
In the early church (according the Early Church Fathers) the casting out of demons was widely accepted and exorcism could be performed by anyone. Why then has this practice changed? It has been found that in severe cases if the one who is casting out the demons is not experienced or grounded in faith and does not have sufficient spiritual protection it can be harmful for both the victim and the so called exorcist. We find in Matthew 17:20-21 a case in which the apostles could not cast out a demon from the epileptic demoniac. Jesus rebuked them for not being prepared and told them only through prayer and fasting could this demon be cast out.
Before Vatican II the exorcism prayer was part of the Baptismal rite. Why? In the days of the early church there were many pagans coming into the church. Part of the long preparation for these pagans coming into the church was exorcism on Holy Saturday before Easter.
Around the third century, Pope Cornelius was the first to make the exorcist a minor order (See on Internet about this). He announced that an exorcist could be a priest, deacon or in the subdiaconate. The minor order of exorcism has since been dropped by Pope Paul VI in 1972. He did not believe there was a need and it was obsolete.
From the Commentary of the Code of Canon Law
Canon 1172 - (1) No one can perform exorcisms legitimately upon the possessed unless he has obtained special express permission from the local ordinary. (2) The local ordinary is to give this permission only to a presbyter who has piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life.
An exorcism is a sacramental by which "the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion. The canon pertains to solemn exorcisms observing the Rite of Exorcism of the Roman Ritual, not to the simply exorcism that are part of the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults or the baptism of infants.
One of the praenotanda to the 1998 Rite of Exorcism (n13) has completely reordered this canon. There are significant differences between the new law and the canon.
An exorcist is to be a priest (sacerdos) not a presbyter (presbyterus) as in the canon, which means bishops as well as presbyters may be appointed exorcists.
The priest must have specific preparation for this office.
"For the most part" (plerumque), the local ordinary who appoints the exorcist should be the diocesan bishop, which implies that the vicar general and episcopal vicar should not do it without a special mandate, except in a case of need when the bishop cannot be reached.
The exorcist, whether appointed to the stable office of exorcist or ad actum, is to fulfill this ministry under the direction of the diocesan bishop.
Deliverance:
HOW DO DELIVERANCE PRAYERS DIFFER FROM EXORCISM PRAYERS?
Today solemn exorcism is limited to the priest who prays in the name of the church. There are three requirements in order for this rite to be performed; the person must be possessed, a priest must perform the exorcism, and finally an exorcism could only be performed with the permission of the bishop (see signs of possession).
With private exorcism a lay-person or religious can pray in his/her own name (not in the name of the church). What this means is the laity cannot use the Roman Ritual of Exorcism to pray in the name of the church.
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HOW DO EVIL SPIRITS ENTER US?
Evil spirits enter us through many ways as indicated in the examples below.
Innocent Victim :
In some cases, evil spirits enter an innocent victim. The victim may be an unborn baby who is cursed from the mother's womb. The curse can be from a jealous relative, friend, enemy, or even the child's own parents.
Innocent victims may also include children who are not loved, who are mistreated or abused or rejection by other children, siblings, parents, etc. The abuse can range from sexual abuse, mental abuse, or physical abuse.
Those who Choose Evil:
In other cases, an evil spirit may enter us because of involvement in evil practices such as the occult, The occult is any practice that involves ceremonies, rituals, chants, magic, or activities that are obviously not God centered. These activities or rituals can change the course of nature, the the lives of those who are involved in such practices, and of course, the innocent victims.
The Ouija board is a popular occult board game and there is also Dungeons and Dragons. Satan's main target in Dungeons and Dragons game is our youth. With Dungeons and Dragons, the most powerful and successful players are those who use magic. There is a Dungeons Master Guide that even teaches new beginners how to communicate with the dead, cast spells, and learn to chant.
The use of magic revolves around evil spirits, psychic abilities and contacting spirits. Magic is a power that does not involve God. It is a power that is derived from such things as voodoo, sorcery, primitive religions and Satanism. Most witches who use magic swear that they do not worship Satan but worship the gods and goddesses of nature (The gods and goddesses of nature are hardly Jesus Christ! Of course they worship Satan! Do not let someone who practices this occult tell you otherwise!). Many of these individuals are unknown because they blend in quite well. They can be found attending church services in every denomination and they practice their magic on the side. If someone tells you white magic is ok--don't believe them!!
Use of new age tools such as crystals, divination, astrology, tarot cards, crystal balls, reincarnation, pendulums, Yoga, Transcendental Meditation
Those who make a pact with Satan or attend Satanic services or rituals.
Going to Séances, fortune tellers, Horoscopes, or spiritualist meetings for the purpose of contact the dead.
Those who use alcohol or mind changing drugs such as LSD, cocaine, marijuana
Sex out of wedlock, active homosexuals, masturbation, adultery
Those who have an abortion
Those who try to commit suicidal or have suicidal tendencies.
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CAN I COMMAND AN EVIL SPIRIT TO LEAVE ME?
Yes! You can say deliverance prayers for yourself but in order for you to achieve freedom you must be spiritually prepared by making a commitment to God. You must stop any sinful acts (see Ten Commandments) and confess your sins. Before you can renounce evil in your life you must want to change and follow God where ever he leads you.
It is very important to have a guide to follow that is why we highly recommend Neal Lozano's book "UNBOUND". Neal will walk you through the steps to finding freedom. "UNBOUND" can be purchased at Neal's website http://www.heartofthefather.com/ or on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/.
Neal suggests that you find someone with experience to pray with you for deliverance. If there is no one to help you with deliverance prayers then you can apply what you have learned from Neal's book and say deliverance prayers for yourself.
If you cannot afford the book (@ $12.00) there are steps you can take on your own but they may not be as effective without the proper training necessary to know what spirit is behind your affliction. That is why we recommend Neal's book.
We will briefly go over Neal's five keys with our own summary. Reflect on these keys. Start at the beginning of your life while you were in your mother's womb (see Prayer Ninth Months from the Mothers Womb). Move on next to your infancy, childhood, teenage years, adult life.
1) Repentance and Faith
If you do not already have a relationship with God you must start one. Pray and ask God to enter your life (see finding God).
Examples:
Lord please forgive me for ______
Lord I am sorry for____
2) Forgiveness
To forgive another is a very difficult task and because of this fact, many people choose not to forgive. Unforgiveness is death to the soul and this death is reflected in the lives of those who are unforgiving. When we are unforgiving we store up hatred and revenge and this is what makes us unhappy, depressed, filled with anxiety, full of self-hatred, loneliness, hatred and unkindness towards others, the inability to love, and finally, we are unpleasant to be around. Forgiveness is a very important part of healing and deliverance. If you are having difficulty in forgiving someone go straight to God and ask Him for help. It is good to cry and let the hurt out. Ask God to replace the hurt with His love. Ask Him to help you to forgive.
Examples:
In the name of Jesus I forgive_____ for________ (be specific)
3) Renouncing the works of your enemies
When you renounce a troubled area of your live (example:I renounce the spirit of FEAR) you are giving up the power Satan has over you. You are the one in charge and you are the one who wants the evil influence to leave.
Neal tells us that renunciation does three things:
a) Identifies the lie and the power behind the lie
b) Breaks the power
c) Gives us personal responsibility (we are telling the evil we have had enough and want it to leave.
Examples:
I renounce every physical and sexual tie with____ and I take back the authority I gave him or her (or what he/she took from me)
I renounce my addiction to drugs
I renounce the spirit of fear that entered me when I was raped.
4) Standing in the authority you have in Christ
As Neal states in his book, "We have been given authority in His name to advance the Kingdom of God. We can exercise this authority over evil spirits as we serve Him, is our own lives.
Mark 16:17-18 - "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
Examples:
In the name of Jesus I break the power of every spirit that (person or self) have renounced, and I command them to go right now.
5) Receiving God's blessing of your identity and destiny
Satan's plan is for you to be miserable your whole life and to hate God. As Neal states in his book: "At the heart of Satan's attack upon you is his attempt to rob you of your true identity and destiny. Satan will do anything he can to keep you from knowing God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
An example prayer from "Unbound":
My Father, thank You for sending Jesus and showing me the way home to You.
I have opened myself to You. My life is hidden in Christ. Please bless my life. As
I identify with Christ, I, too, can hear Your words spoken over me: "You are my
son/daughter, whom I love: with you I am well pleased." In Christ I receive this
blessing--and every spiritual blessing You have for me. Thank You, Father, for
knitting me together in my mother's womb, for calling me by name and for
having a special plan for my future.
Y our works are wonderful!
Examples:
Say prayers of thanks to God.
http://www.stmichael.pair.com/laitydeliverance.htm
Never ask a relgionist anything. He'll likely as not throw the whole book atcha.
To Ancient Healing Arts- you say
Hello, would like to mention that this was not a exorcism and it was a hatch up scam. If you read the straits times carefully, this woman and her family are not credible at all
Hello, the world is like that. Indeed they are not credible because she may use that and plan a tremendous story against the church thinking they will lose.
Theimpression I get is that she has a big credibility issue because of the pscy history.
Illustration: a pscy person shouts molest and charge the offender for eg: (assuming it really happens)-then will this victim's allegation get shot down to bits because of the pscy issue?
maybe get shreds to bits by defence side for being"overly imaginative" for eg?
whatever the outcome to this case, I think she has suffered (not going into whether she is a cheat etc or not). I suppose you also won't take all Straits Time words wholesale and wholeheartedly right? What you read maybe just what they intend you to read :P - LH
Thanks for your posts, ancient healing arts - they are precious.
I expect you will make a great lawyer, but a poor scientist.
To Ancient Healing Arts:
Wow, what a long post!
You are saying that this is not an exorcism because:
There are three requirements in order for this rite to be performed; the person must be possessed, a priest must perform the exorcism, and finally an exorcism could only be performed with the permission of the bishop (see signs of possession).
I'm assuming that you're pointing out that the permission of the bishop was not given in this case.
My question - is holy water usually sprinkled on the person during deliverances?
To Blogter:
Welcome to Fresh Brainz! Yes, A.H.A. put up a lot of material, but I'm curious to know if there are procedural differences between exorcism and deliverance.
To LH:
I hope more information will come to light when Mdm Valli herself turns up in court next Wednesday.
To Angry Doc:
Not sure about A.H.A's potential as a great lawyer, but a clear, one paragraph answer would have impressed me more.
The Power of Holy Water
from the Autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila
1562 A.D.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From long experience I have learned that there is nothing like holy water to put devils to flight and prevent them from coming back again. They also flee from the Cross, but return; so holy water must have great virtue. For my own part, whenever I take it, my soul feels a particular and most notable consolation. In fact, it is quite usual for me to be conscious of a refreshment which I cannot possibly describe, resembling an inward joy which comforts my whole soul. This is not fancy, or something, which has happened to me only once; it has happened again and again and I have observed it most attentively. It is let us say, as if someone very hot and thirsty were to drink from a jug of cold water: he would feel the refreshment throughout his body. I often reflect on the great importance of everything ordained by the Church and it makes me very happy to find that those words of the Church are so powerful that they impart their power to the water and make it so very different from water which has not been blessed."
"One night, too, about this time, I thought the devils were stifling me; and when the nuns had sprinkled a great deal of holy water about I saw a huge crowd of them running away as quickly as though they were about to fling themselves down a steep place."
"I will only describe something that happened to me one night of All Souls. I was in an oratory: I had said one nocturne and was repeating some very devotional prayers which follow it -- they are extremely devotional: we have them in our office-book -- when actually the devil himself alighted on the book, to prevent me from finishing the prayer. I made the sign of the Cross and he went away. I then began again and he came back. I think I began that prayer three times and not until I had sprinkled some holy water on him could I finish it. At the same moment I saw several souls coming out of purgatory: their time there must have been nearly up and I thought that perhaps the devil was trying to impede their deliverance."
Preparation before the Prayer of Deliverance
Just as when we are about to begin a battle, we must sit and study our intelligence on the enemy, we must analyze our weapons and our capacity, we must be totally sure that our battle will lead us to victory.
To try to fight the devil without knowing knowing the necessary tactics to defeat him, is like being unprotected and placing our hands in a beehive, or like playing with fire.
First of all we must be clear about the notion that God is the only one who can overcome the enemy, since He alone is superior to the devil, who has been created according to his designs.
Here we really must make use of the Work of God, nor our own, since God definitively is the only way for our deliverance.
Again, an exorcism is an exclusive matter for a priest duly authorized by the Church according to Canon 1172 of the Code of Canon Law.
I repeat, we are not going to do an exorcism, we are going then to prepare ourselves for a profound prayer of deliverance, which involves the knowledge of all that is mentioned previously above and of the prayers recommended.
We may also make use of sacramentals such as a crucifix containing wood (it must not be all plastic or metallic), holy water, holy salt and holy oil.
The influenced person may pray these prayers although, it is probable that the enemy will distract him and he may end up doing something else, this is why it is recommended that at least two people who are faithful to the Church, preferably who attend mass daily say the prayers.
The day of the prayers, they must get together in a place where there won't be other persons who may interrupt or become influenced by the evil one. First of all they must talk about God, read the Holy Bible and make available at least two or three hours to avoid any haste.
It is a good idea for all to be in a state of grace, and to have confessed their sins recently, to avoid the risk of being scandalized by knowledge of the evil one.
During some moments in our prayers we should kneel down, although it is also good to be comfortable and serene during most of the time.
It is recommended to anoint the influenced person with holy oil during the prayer of deliverance, especially when we start to ask the Lord to cast out the enemy. It is also recommended to sprinkle holy water in the place and also to make the sign of the cross.
In the sections where appears the sign of the cross, we must pause, bless ourselves and bless those we praying for.
It is advisable to make copies of the prayers for every one present, this way there is more concentration, although only one person should read the prayers loudly and clearly, but every one must live them in their hearts.
We must read very slowly, as if waiting for a response to our prayer after every sentence.
Those who have received the gift of tongues, may praise God in tongues during the prayers, remembering the words of Jesus about not worrying in court, that is being before the accuser, since the Holy Spirit will speak for us, and our Heavenly Father will command the enemy to go out of the situation or person we are praying for.
These prayers may be repeated as often as possible, until obtaining total deliverance. Whenever a priest exorcises in cases of possession, very seldom, the devil leaves in the first session, unless it is a case of influence which only requires faith and determination from the influenced person.
Here we may understand better Mark 16:15 when Jesus gives the believers the power to cast out devils, as a sign accompanied by the gift of tongues and the gift of healing.
Since it is the Spirit that commands and not ourselves, we are never contradicting the Church during these prayers. He who prays for the benefit of his brother is giving glory to God. See James 5:19-20
Warnings
The devil knows beforehand that we are preparing a prayer to this end, normally unexpected things may occur, like problems and misunderstandings that perturb those who are going to do the prayer, cars don't start, unexpected programs, lock that don't open, keys that brake, and other incredible things may happen to cancel the prayer meeting. It is recommended that those taking part in the prayers attend mass during that day, and with anticipation offer holy masses offering the Precious Blood of Jesus for the deliverance of the person who requires it.
When we start the prayers, we must not pay attention to the enemy if there is a manifestation, especially with lies or blasphemies. Our prayers are directed to God, not to the devil, our conversation is with God, we can not interrupt it by having a dialog with the devil.
We must not be afraid by any noises, movements or gestures made by the one being prayed over, we must not be afraid even if our legs are trembling, this is natural to feel, but we must not interrupt our prayer by having a dialog with the enemy.
Our faith must remain firm in the power of God that is going to bring deliverance to a suffering soul.
It is advisable to speak with the person in question and make him feel repentance for his sins and to confirm his faith in the power of Christ for his deliverance, at the same time these prayers can be said at any distance, with the same effectiveness, since we don't have any power or sanctity, it is God who is doing his work by listening to our sincere prayer full of faith.
We must not allow ourselves to be taken away by curiosity of having this encounter with the devil, after all we are children of God, created in his image; the devil is also his creation and we must not be too impressed, he is acting according to his evil nature, we are praying according to the Spirit of God who leads us to seek his Glory.
Here are lots of info taken from various resource...now you judge for yourself...thanks
I think I should clarify that I used to be that way too. Ask me (last time) about Christianity and I would throw whole chunks of bible verses or chapters at you. To be fair to AHA, he's just trying to be helpful and share what he knows. And his comments are indeed educational if you're interested in those kinda things.
Oh, and thanks for the welcome!
To Ancient Healing Arts:
I'm assuming that you mean that holy water is also used in deliverances (since you cut-and-pasted a lot of information). Thus an exorcism differs from a deliverance in that the bishop's permission is required for the former, and maybe the nature of the prayers is different.
So in the case of a deliverance, if there are ill effects on the person, is the priest responsible?
To Blogter:
I was hoping to see a clear answer from A.H.A. All I get are cut-n-paste info and no attempt at addressing the issue at hand.
"So in the case of a deliverance, if there are ill effects on the person, is the priest responsible?"
That's like a surgeon using this statement as a defence for a botched surgery:
"It was a procedure, not a surgery."
Good Lord Santa, you guys.
If there were no imaginary God and angels and a great war in heaven there would be no Lucifer and devil.
Why of course it's the devil's fault! Or is djinn? Or perhaps the cookie monster.
Geez. It's 2007 and adults still believe in sky fairies and imaginary monsters.
Morans!
To Angry Doc:
Hahahaha... you're right - except in this case it could also be the disease's fault for being too strong, or the patient's fault for not wanting to get well.
To Anon 1:48:
Bwahahahar... *snort*... but leave the cookie monster out of this, he has already repented. A cookie is a sometimes food!
What strikes me as dodgy..is the presence of a Mr. Nasrom Bin Abdullah at the church during the incident. He's being sued in the suit as well. If, or at all, he was a church helper..why does he still bear his birth name? If i remember correctly (and i might be wrong on this count!), he would have to approach MUIS, declare a change in religion etc etc yes? It's highly suspicious.. There is something to this lady's suit that makes me wonder if something really did go wrong that night.
Also, with the kind of therapy and medication she's supposedly taking, would she even be coherent in court? I highly doubt that she would be.
-passerby-
To Anon 9:55:
Yes, that is strange. Thanks for this interesting information!
"So in the case of a deliverance, if there are ill effects on the person, is the priest responsible?"
Firstly, everyone makes mistakes. We do not know how god works. If there is a mistake, god may be trying to tell us something at hand which we will never comprehend.The priest tries his best but god may sometimes want to show that after all he is human still. Without god's grace, deliverance or exorcism may not be carried out. Sometimes, the work of god is indescribable. What is important is that he tries his best with no ill intentions but act in the name of the church. But many times, there are numerous people who benefit from deliverance or even exorcism. The unsuccesful rate is 1 in a million. Many times, it is unsuccesful because the individual or his or her family did not follow exactly what the priest tells him or her to do.
Its just like a famous surgeon who has cure many many patients through his surgeries over his work. However during 1 single time, he failed a operation and the patient dies as a result. Who is to blame them? Is he at fault? So sometimes, we should look at what good the person has done. The priests have gave their life to god, hoping to save more souls. For at least 15 years for Fr Simon tan and perharps 20 years for Fr Jacob Ng since their ordination(I give them as examples as they are the 2 priests being sued), they both have done countless things and serving the people of God. They are busy people serving and guiding the people of god, don't they deserve some credit? Not because they did anything wrong, but someone out there is out to do harm? They they too deserve some justice? If not where does the pride or priests will go to? Accidents happen but remember, chances are one in a million. Priests are generally good, called to serve others with the gentle yoke of christ. If someone out there is trying to spoil and ruin them, what can they do? Well, after all I guess God has eyes.
For example in the exorcism of emily rose, There is a fact which is not the priest fault. Exorcism is done to enhance the brain activity. However, emily rose took gambutrol(a drug that locks brain activity) thus the exorcism fails, therefore, isit the priest fault? She is not following instructions. In this case, amutha valli can slither like a snake and behave demonic since young, if she is out to fool the priests to gain sympathy and money or even fame, the church have to protect its name and just pray to god to bless her and forgive her which the priests will definetely will(however priests are not punching backs, they are human too) so do not abuse the church teachings. Whoever of you are doing so, stop it.
Its that simple. Look at the positive side and not the negative. Unfortunately, what we always see in today's world is the negative and rather believe the opposite than the truth. This can be seen in madam amutha's suit. Just because she is suing the priests does not mean she is an angel and have nothing to do with it and everything is just the priests fault, the church fault! If so, where is justice. Now you judge for yourself. This is just an example. Now you judge for yourself.
Lastly, for more questions, do email/msn me at nlrx@hotmail.com. I will try to reply to them within my means and I will try my best to help you understand doubts on christianity. No spammers please. I will only answer proper questions and not personal questions! Thanks and God Bless!
AHA--> the way i read it, the plaintiff's lawyers made it very clear that it is not an attack against the religion. The priests however do not embody 'God', and as such they are human and thus fallible. We don't know what happened that night and i dont think the media's doing a fair job in its reporting. The focus seems to be on everything else except the incident itself. However, whether or not the patient is mentally ill, that should not exempt her from seeking justice. It is very hypocritical to set 'normal' people by one store and mentally unfit people by another. Evidently there are medical reports to show that she was injured after the incident. One should probably wait until the cross-examinations of the defendants are done before passing judgement. I personally find it hard to believe that a woman would go to such lengths to pull off a half-baked scam. Afterall..there is no smoke without a fire yes? I'm looking forward to hearing more about the trial tomorrow..and am also hoping (against all hope, i might add!), that the media for once does its job properly!
Also, you might want to google on this so-called snake spirit. I did, and apparently this 'snake spirit' is a beloved deity for Hindus. Lest you want a billion hindus across the world to unleash their wrath on you, you might want to refrain using words like 'demon' etc. There's enough religious strife in the world already. Let's not un-intentionally trigger off the third crusade.
-passerby-
"We do not know how god works."
How do you know that?
"If there is a mistake, god may be trying to tell us something at hand which we will never comprehend."
If you do not know how god works, how do you know that's what he is trying to tell us? If it's something you can't comprehend, why does God bother to try to tell it to you?
"The priest tries his best but god may sometimes want to show that after all he is human still."
"Many times, it is unsuccesful because the individual or his or her family did not follow exactly what the priest tells him or her to do."
Again, if we do not know how god works, how do we know those statements are true? If an exorcism fails, how do you know which reason caused it to fail?
"But many times, there are numerous people who benefit from deliverance or even exorcism. The unsuccesful rate is 1 in a million."
Where did you get that figure?
"Accidents happen but remember, chances are one in a million."
Again, a source for that figure would be appreciated.
"Exorcism is done to enhance the brain activity."
On what basis do you make that statement? Has any study be done to indicate this?
I appreciate your offer to answer more questions by email, but since you have made these statements on an open blog, I think we are entitled to answers on the open blog, or a retraction of the statements if you are unable to back them up with facts.
Thank you.
Ok, I think this is not going anywhere. Firstly, what I believe is not what the world may use to believe which is faith. Sorry if I made any remarks that I may not back them. These are my personal views based on numerous encounter with people at church. Therefor, I will not be able to answer you with evidence. Sorry for those who will be disappointed. God knows everything, he can answer what we can't. The truth will be told to reliable man and I believe one day people will believe the word faith. Sorry if I over reacted and used the word 'demon' earlier.
Thanks. I have nothing much to say now. Most are personal views only!
Here is a shorter version of the 2 differences:
exorcism is a formal rite only used with special dispensation from the bishop and only can be done by a priest designated by the bishop giving the approval which deliverance
opps...this is a the continue from the previous post...
which deliverance is a imformal prayer at a goodwill of helping the person.
Thanks. Take care
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